Not exactly a meme, but something I did for fun. Also, I'm tired of seeing people calling characters they don't like MarySues. Of course, they were mostly made out by me based on fan characters only (especially the anime stereotype). But maybe it works with official creatures, too? Name the characters if you want. Though the first one has an obvious example, really.
Give credit and link here if you're going to use for whatever.
That's an interesting and cute little chart you did there. Now I do believe people (and... myself, on the same way) will understand more easily the difference between Sues and other stereotypes (at some point, I was even telling myself that Sues don't exist in fact).
I think one of the thing about the Mary Sues traits is that the characters aren't three dimensionals. They're just here to deliver THE MESSAGE with all their "sparkleness". The Bad-Selfie, the Bad-Muse, P3, D3 and Anime Layout can be even more three dimensionals than Sues at that point. But I've been told Mary Sues were not all extremely "standing out of the crowd" and that even stunningly beautiful characters could not be Sues. I don't know at that point if I really know Sues, but I know some Bad-Selfie and now THANK YOU : I know the difference !
And now I'm wondering how I cannot fall in the Bad-Muse type, looking at where I am... However, the P3, D3 and Anime Layout seem to be always taken for Sues parodies. I would be lying if I said my MS Cupcake didn't look like Anime Layout but... just putting a character "Peach-Like" with all pretty smile and nice pinky stuff OR emo-ish and black things won't make it a Mary Sue. Combining the two with Anime Layout and some Bad-Selfie/Muse MAKES IT a Mary Sue. From what you make me understand, in fact.
Can't it be possible that some characters don't need big powers to be Mary Sues ? And perfect boyfriends, huh... You mean when they change Slenderman or Jeff the Killer into cute little puppies, right ? What about the "Anti-Sue" and "Villain-Sue" ? Same rules ?
(Yeah, I'm sorry if my comment is messy. Maybe I'm not clear...)
I made something bigger in Google Docs, if you're interested. [link] - I just hope it doesn't sound offensive to you... I can be snarky and demanding when it comes to characters, so please, don't take it (too) personal...
Those stereotypes are not universal, but what's more common and/or predictable when it comes to fan characters. I guess the bad selfie is even more common than MarySues nowadays, especially with so many fans bitching about them fan characters alone. The biggest and most common MarySue stereotype is the Selfie-Sue stated in my Docs guide, which is basically "me with supapauahs", but if you want me to be honest hardly one does this nowadays. xD
"However, the P3, D3 and Anime Layout seem to be always taken for Sues parodies." - those are more likely to be the actual source of MarySues, especially considering they're about the Mother's fantasies (I call MarySue authors "Mothers" out of sarcasm).
"just putting a character "Peach-Like" with all pretty smile and nice pinky stuff OR emo-ish and black things won't make it a Mary Sue. Combining the two with Anime Layout and some Bad-Selfie/Muse MAKES IT a Mary Sue. From what you make me understand, in fact." - Quite. I'd call that a MarySue, even if it's just a bad character Because it's annoyingly outstanding like one.
"But I've been told Mary Sues were not all extremely "standing out of the crowd" and that even stunningly beautiful characters could not be Sues." - The beauty or the overpowering alone doesn't make the MarySue. A MarySue is a frankenpie of everything the Mother might like, regardless of what it is. The bad stereotypes I mentioned here and in the guide (which was more for dem lulz in the first one) are actually one dimensional themselves (yes, they CAN be three-dimensional, but those are the ones that are not, and unfortunately the majority) because they're shallow and poorly done comparing to MarySues and well-developed characters. But I personally think this is something that is quite complex to discuss. There are simpler standards to put the differences aside. To add, the MarySue stands out by being herself (and herself is too perfect to be realistic), but not necessarily the others will state her to be godlike and whatnot (in fact, it'll be easier to find a MarySue that is NOT cumplimented at all because others are usually envious).
"Can't it be possible that some characters don't need big powers to be Mary Sues ?" - I don't see why not. You can be perfect by knowing how to fight with swords, guns, your own body, and at the same time is great at cooking, embroidery, singing, dancing...
"And perfect boyfriends, huh... You mean when they change Slenderman or Jeff the Killer into cute little puppies, right ?" - Not every OOC makes a GaryStu or MarySue accessory, but the latter always results in OOC and bad characters.
"What about the "Anti-Sue" and "Villain-Sue" ? Same rules ?" - Damn straight! But they're also a case apart.
That was nice to read. And thank you for the llama !^^
I'd put your document in my favorites. Just couldn't resist. Plus, I don't really feel offended by anything : it will help me more than insult me and I KNOW I have flaws. Damn, I'm sure I have some big Muse-Meme now in my stories, so I can still fix it with what you wrote in mind. I know a "Super-Self-Insert", too, but I'm not naming anyone...
Well, who doesn't have fantasies ? It's just strange that everyone has the same stupid fetishes when we talk about Original Characters. Why is there so many clumsy-kawaii and tsundere-temperish manga wannabe ? I don't mind a girl clumsy or one with a temper, but seriously, it must be one of the most done shit ever. Like the emo or the Self-Insert BLAND (no, seriously, when I'm looking at some of those, I'm just seeing a "basic reaction", not something coming from one particular person... and it's worst when she barely does anything).
Oh God, seeing what you're saying, a Mary Sue is even WORSE than a mash up with all the characters above XD
No, I know if a character is just beautiful, it will not count as a Mary Sue (but some people are tagging some OCs "Sues" because of that... wut ?), but looking at your chart, I had the impression that it was one of the fact that makes a character obviously a MS. Now again, I think you're right about the stereotypes, my bad. I thought because the characters-stereotypes didn't have much stuff than the MS, the authors could still do something with their psychology. They're overdone, but the Mary Sue has still less chance to get one pinch of real psychology because the "Mothers" concentrate too much on what she has physically and some of her traits (usually a mix between their own reactions, the P3 and D3, no ?). There's no subtility in a Mary Sue, so I was thinking that compared to her, the stereotypes still had a chance to evolve (without cancelling things about them like the MS, I mean) but yeah, it depends still of the author. Personally, I'm trying to avoid stereotypes or to go against stereotypes but maybe I'm wrong. Well, I found many Mary Sues insulted like hell and people with strange characters (not fitting very well in the fandoms) simply ignored. But people envy them ? Huh... okay. That's just weird. They're jealous because the "Mother" has the idea before them or because the character stands more out than what they could've created ? I'm curious...
That's what I thought : too much abilities KILL the ability (of making a great character). That's quite annoying when a character is tagged as a MS by people because... it's a great fighter. Or if that character is stronger than some Cannon characters. Come on, who said it had to be a pussy in front of anyone because it's not part of the show/book/game ?
Well, it's hard to make a heartless murderer or a simple psycho fall in love with a made up character without driving with joy into the OOCness. But even a normal or even "naturally caring with people" character can turn OOC because "that's love at first sight" with the MS/Self-Insert/whatever. But that "love at first sight" just comes from nowhere ! They just meet and DANG, there's nothing else in their lives and goodbye the subtle. Make it slow, girls, the characters have to know each others if you want the relationship to have something deeper. Love at first sight exists, right... but this is just tiring.
Yeah, I found the "Anti-Sue" (in the stupid character, somehow) and the "Villain Sue" in your bigger rant. I guess the "Geniuse-Child-Sue" people talk sometimes about or forget just goes in the same categories as the others Sues so it doesn't need a rant : knows everything without any reasons and is incredibly powerful despite her young age.
(I know it's stupid as hell and I should know it since a while... but how do you write in "italic", "bold" or give links ?)
(I'm planning on making some rants and charts too (on different and same subjects when I'll buy what I need) and it's possible that I quote your name or some of your lines, does it bother you ?)
(It's the same as HTML formmating, they have a guide here: [link])
(of course not )
"I KNOW I have flaws. Damn, I'm sure I have some big Muse-Meme now in my stories, so I can still fix it with what you wrote in mind." - No problem, I have a Meme-muse, too. I should clarify that what caracterizes the Meme-Muse kind is the OVERuse in fucking everywhere AND the primary focus always on them, and not the actual insertion(s) in whereever.
"There's no subtility in a Mary Sue, so I was thinking that compared to her, the stereotypes still had a chance to evolve" - they do, but most of time the author does NOT do that for fear or overdoing it. See what I mean?
"Well, who doesn't have fantasies ? It's just strange that everyone has the same stupid fetishes when we talk about Original Characters." - RIGHT? xD I just don't get why people have fantasies over the bishounen guy, it's just quite silly. And tsundere is popular because most teenagers ARE afraid of admitting feelings, especially if they went through a trauma regarding some asshole who rejected them the harsh way - I was one of those teenagers, and ironically I do hate tsundere.
"Personally, I'm trying to avoid stereotypes or to go against stereotypes but maybe I'm wrong." - The stereotype itself is not the actual problem, but the overuse of it. In fact, if you're good with creating characters, it'll later get harder to fit them or to work with the stereotypes, because you'll always want something more interesting than a pre-made personality. Since not everyone likes to search for good inspiration to create characters, they recurr to their favorite ones. Hence the Recolors.
"Well, I found many Mary Sues insulted like hell and people with strange characters (not fitting very well in the fandoms) simply ignored. But people envy them ? Huh... okay. That's just weird. They're jealous because the "Mother" has the idea before them or because the character stands more out than what they could've created ? I'm curious..." - My bad! The "others" in this case are the other people aside the main working cast - ex: the females at the school the MarySue studies at. You know, typical teenage story in which the girl character gets bullied until she proves herself right and gets accepted by the other students. Either that, or the Mother is forcing down her own teenage drama in the story. As for the authors who don't create bad characters, they are not "envious", I'd say they (those who care about popularity, a'course) get mad with grief. I mean, you make a great character with potential and content, but they'll never be acknowledged like said lame OC or MarySue because they're "too plain". While I find this quite contradictory, I'd say it's quite egocentric to be this mad because your good character is not "popular" or whatever.
"But that "love at first sight" just comes from nowhere!" - That's why Mothers love it so much, no need to explain or develop the love story, LOL! I might confess my OTP of MLP is Fluttershy with a fan character of mine, Love Arrow. But I decided to make it (almost) like a romantic comedy, in which the guy pretty much fails in order to be her boyfriend. And she shrugs (??) and turns away, lol.
"Yeah, I found the "Anti-Sue" (in the stupid character, somehow) and the "Villain Sue" in your bigger rant. I guess the "Geniuse-Child-Sue" people talk sometimes about or forget just goes in the same categories as the others Sues so it doesn't need a rant : knows everything without any reasons and is incredibly powerful despite her young age." - The Genius child is an awesome addition, thank you!
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